what does poi si torno all eterna fontana mean?stellaris unbidden and war in heaven. And his fundamental secular cry seems right: since time is all we have, we must measure its preciousness in units of freedom. Orual the heroine is about to enter into single combat with an enemy which will decide the fate of their city. Only under torture does he discover it himself.. O endless unlimited riches! Dante was consciously portraying Psalm19:1, The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands, and C. S. Lewis would have realized that. And then she returned to the Eternal Fount Poi si torno all eterna fontana. Verffentlicht am 3. Hey if anyone could help a student out It would be much appreciated, thanks. "How wicked it would be, if we could, to call the dead back! At the end of The Last Battle the children are in Heaven and one of them says, I see world within world, Narnia within Narnia Yes, said Mr. Tumnus, like an onion: except that as you go in and in, each circle is larger than the last. What would it be to taste at the fountain-head that stream of which even these lower reaches prove so intoxicating? And then she returned to the Eternal Fount Poi si torno all eterna fontana. My immediate thoughts are - Wow! Lewis Scholarship in Christianity & Literature, Tony Marchingtons chemical soot analysis hoax prepared on Hoopers typewriter, Through Joy and Beyond film and seminar tour, February-April, Stephen Schofield launches Canadian C.S. Poi si torn all' eterna fontana. In C. S. Lewiss last book, Letters to Malcolm (1964), he is still referring to Dantes Paradise. The eagle rebuked him; Who are you to sit in ajudgment seat a thousand miles away when you cant see farther than a handbreadth?. His notion of religion seems to be northern-European Christian first and foremost; he is quiet about Judaism, whose practices are sensibly grounded in the here and now, and which lacks the intense emphasis on the afterlife characteristic of Islam and Christianity. For its not enough to claim that religious values can be subsumed by secular ones. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. He reflects But when Dante saw the great apostles in heaven they affected him like mountains. These are visions of the secular. Then she turned back to the Eternal Fountain." Final Thoughts. He makes a similar point in relation to Buddhism. [32] This is taken from Dante's Paradise, the third part of his Divine Comedy. In Regress the journey with Contemplation is only a dream, and the pilgrim awakens to his old terror of death; his real arrival at his destination comes a bit later in the story, in Book 10. When Christians say, If there is no immortality, then there is no God, they are actually saying, If I am not immortal, then there is no God. They make God dependent on them. He has to be knocked silly before he comes to his senses. But if you can lose nothing in eternity, he goes on, it is because there is literally nothing left to lose.. To the wife, daughters and other family members of Deputy Sheriff Jack Dean Werner. She said not to me but to the chaplain, I am at peace with God. She smiled, but not at me. Dorothy Sayers died in December 1957, and C. S. Lewis wrote a tribute to be read at her memorial service in January 1958. Visita il forum Italiano-Inglese. NIDO Kinder es la leche para nios favorita de las mams y los pequeos de Mxico que los ha acompaado por generaciones gracias a la nutricin y gran calidad que brinda.Presentaciones: Lata de 360, 800, 840, 1500, 1600 y 2200 g. Bolsa con 520 g. To revisit this article, select My Account, thenView saved stories, To revisit this article, visit My Profile, then View saved stories, At a recent conference on belief and unbelief hosted by the journal Salmagundi, the novelist and essayist Marilynne Robinson confessed to knowing some good people who are atheists, but lamented that she has yet to hear the good Atheist position articulated. She explained, I cannot engage with an atheism that does not express itself.. Camus knew quite a lot about the last three of those roles. The idea of eternity, Martin Hgglund argues, destroys meaning and value. Jack is survived by his wife Marilyn. 2023 Cond Nast. Their own figures of speech are the slightly bent keys to their unlocking. Moreover, I care for the preservation of the landscape because I am aware that even the duration of the natural environment is not guaranteed. Elsewhere, Hgglund defines the religious aspiration to eternity as part of any ideal that promises us that we will be absolved from the pain of loss. Defining the religious ideal in this way enables him to characterize, however unfairly, Stoicism, Buddhisms Nirvana (a detachment from everything that is finite), and even Spinozas pure contemplation as the highest good as essentially religious. (4) Lewis claims, The angels never knew (from within) the meaning of the word ought, and the blessed dead have long since gladly forgotten it. Dantes final sentence in Paradise (and the entire Comedy) ends with but my desire and will were being turned already, like a wheel in perfect balance, by the Love that moves the sun and other stars. In Heaven Dantes desire and will were miraculously conformed to the will of God. It illustrates the kind of relationship for which we are all looking. Rather than simply replace the realm of necessity with the realm of freedomwhich would be impossible anyway, because there is always tedious and burdensome work to be donewe should be able to better negotiate the relationship between those realms. C. S. Lewis read Dantes Inferno in Italian when he was in his teens, and he read Dantes Purgatory in the hospital when he was recovering from wounds he received in the inferno of World War One. is rico story true. Lewis in C.S. It could mean "spring" in Italian too. You are here: state certification number for mechanic southwest park kayak rental fastest microsd card 512gb new england, middle, and southern colonies powerpoint . how is american identity changed by the 20th century. (LogOut/ Or Louise Glcks extraordinary poem Field Flowers, narrated from the perspective of a flower, which chides its human visitors for thinking about eternal life instead of looking more closely at the flowers. Globally, his fans are legion. Poi si torno all' eterna fontana." C.S. Martin Hgglund argues that rigorous secularism leads to socialism. As if aware of such faintheartedness, he ends the book with a beautiful examination of Martin Luther King,Jr.in particular the celebrated last speech he gave, in Memphis. The first kind of grace is Gods actively reaching out to His beloved creature, and the second kind of grace is Gods helping the beloved creature to reach back. I should describe it as feeling more important than any poetry I have ever read., Lewis suggested that Greeves might try it in English translation, but warned him If you do, I think the great point is to give up any idea of reading it in long stretches instead, read a small daily portion, in rather a liturgical manner, letting the images and the purely intellectual conceptions sink well into the mind. Lewis was a British writer, best known for The Chronicles of Narnia, who was professor of English literature at both Oxford and Cambridge University. What happens after we die? fontana nf (oggetto: spruzza acqua) fountain n : La fontana segreta era il luogo di ritrovo preferito degli innamorati. Eternity is not at the heart of what such people care about; they hardly ever spend time envisaging it. Lewis tries to imagine what it will be like to reach the true object of our deepest desire. Or at any rate exactly the same? Jack was predeceased by his parents Thomas & Annie, son Jonathan, and brother Don. He wants to out religionists as closet secularists. . C. S. Lewis published his second space-travel novel, Perelandra, in 1943. Early in this allegory a man named John awakens in a wood and realizes that he wants out. Al repasar las palabras, me pareca que l estuviese describiendo justamente todo lo que yo haba pasado y . Ive just discovered this fictionalised account of their relationship and marriage, which is now on my TBR list. Nothing else will do. None of these objections disarm Hgglunds essential argument, which I findhaving been raised in a Christian tradition relentlessly committed to preferring the eternal to the worldlybeautifully liberating. Now he knows from his experience of this sweet life and its opposite the price of not following Christ. (According to a medieval tradition, after Trajan spent time in Hell he had a chance to enter Heaven and did so.). Like many readers, I get anxious when literary academics use the verb negotiate at tricky moments; it forecloses argument, and seldom means actual negotiation. A hundred pages or more on Capital, Grundrisse, and the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844 might at first seem like an extended session of literary-theoretical self-pleasuring. Lo fa con una mostra princeps a Ca' Giustinian, nella rinnovata sede istituzionale . I visited poor old John Flanaghan in hospital the evening he died. (2 Famous forgeries and unlikely Lewis literature), The Man Born Blind written by Lewis in the late 1920s, according to Barfield, The Most Substantial People novel begun by Lewis circa 1927, 2 Encyclopedia Boxoniana allegedly started by Lewis in September, 2 Encyclopedia Boxoniana allegedly finished by Lewis in April, Purchase of the Kilns by the Lewis brothers and Mrs. Moore, C.S. Esta entrega de Bibliotheca Augustiniana se cierra con la seccin de Comentarios Bibliogrficos. par | Juil 2, 2022 | mitchell wesley carlson charged | justin strauss net worth | Juil 2, 2022 | mitchell wesley carlson charged | justin strauss net worth Yell have heard that the emperor Trajan did. Readers of Paradise would have heard so. Poi si torno all' eterna fontana." C.S. I dont know whether it is really very different from the Inferno (B. says it is as different as chalk from cheese heaven from hell, would be more appropriate!) Hgglund, who was born and reared in Sweden and now teaches comparative literature at Yale, begins his book by telling us that he returns every summer to the northern-Swedish landscape he knows from his childhood. But Marx is at the living center of This Life, not just as the slayer of religious and capitalist illusion but, more important, as the utopian who saw beyond merely negative critique. Yet you could not accuse This Life of being merely a work of theory. Lewis Hoax in April, Hooper donates Dark Tower manuscript to the Bodleian, = Death of Richard Hodgens (Dark Tower expert), 2 Publication of Christian Reunion (in Christian Reunion and Other Essays), Mattson announces nonexistent Julius Grant chemical analysis of Dark Tower document, A. Q. Morton tests Dark Tower and Christian Reunion, both of mixed authorship, = Death of Chad Walsh (first American Lewis specialist), C. S. Lewis Petition calls for open forum on posthumous Lewis canon, Hoopers Supplement to Bibliography (in C.S. Hgglunds book involves deep and demanding readings of St. Augustine, Kierkegaard, Marx, and Martin Luther King, Jr. (with some Theodor Adorno, Charles Taylor, Thomas Piketty, and Naomi Klein thrown in), but it is always lucid, and is at its heart remarkably simple. Lewis, A Grief Observed. ), In The Great Divorce a resident of Heaven, George MacDonald, assures Lewis that visitors from Hell to Heaven can stay if they want to. The blows of his chisel that hurt us so much make us perfect. A Grief Observed was originally published in 1961 after the death of Lewis's wife, Joy Davidman, who Lewis refers to as H. throughout the book (her full name was Helen Joy Davidman).. What did C. S. Lewis write after A Grief Observed? The material on this site may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, cached or otherwise used, except with the prior written permission of Cond Nast. Lewis Journal in Surrey, England, 2 Publication of Hoopers Narnia scraps in Past Watchful Dragons, Hoopers A Bibliography of the Writings of C.S. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit immortal horrors or everlasting splendours. In The Divine Comedy Dante showed how awesome all people really are. Wise, Englands Prince of Bibliographers, exposed, 2The Dark Tower allegedly written by Lewis as sequel to Silent Planet, Publication of The Screwtape Letters makes Lewis a popular author, 2 Mussolinis diary forgery fools the Sunday Times, Publication of C.S. There is also a specific allusion to The Divine Comedy within Pilgrims Regress, and it is highly significant. Poi si torno all eterna fontana. This is from Canto 31, where Dante described Beatrice looking at him for the last time in Paradise: So I prayed; and as distant as she was, she smiled and gazed at me. Poi si torno all' eterna fontana. I think it reaches heights of poetry which you get nowhere else; an ether almost too fine to breathe. The last words, Poi si torno all eterna fontana, mean "And then she returned to the Eternal Fount," which were the last words of Dante's Divine Comedy, when Beatrice returns to heaven. By analogy, he observes, there is no C.S. Lewis for Joy Davidman in heaven and no Joy Davidman for C.S. Lewis. Lewis loved Davidman as an end in herself, Hgglund thinks, only to exchange that love at the last moment for a love of the eternal, making Davidman a means to an end. The specifically maternal happiness must be written off, Lewis allows. Cabe destacar, como otras veces, que esta seccin no existira si no fuera por las editoriales que nos confan la difusin de su trabajo, atendiendo a la enorme y desafiante tarea que significa editar textos cientficos hoy en da. It is chiefly visible things that have this effect" (Plato, 83b). She smiled, but not at me. Hgglund does his usual deconstructive reversal, and argues that Kings religiosity was really a committed secularism. "If there is a tomorrow when we're not together, there is something you must always rememberI'll always be with you.". Feuerbach wanted to liberate human beings from their harmful self-deceptions, but Hgglund sees no imperative to disdain this venerable meaning-making projection, no need to close down all the temples and churches and wash them away with a strong dose of Dawkins. We read the famous words of Kings last speech with new eyes, alert both to his secularism and to a burgeoning critique of capitalism that had to stay clandestine: Its all right to talk about streets flowing with milk and honey, but God has commanded us to be concerned about the slums down here, and his children who cant eat three square meals a day. In 1931 Lewis had written to Arthur Greeves, I think [Paradise] reaches heights of poetry which you get nowhere else. In 1938 he published Out of the Silent Planet. Poi si torno all' eterna fontana." These are the last words in A Grief Observed. JavaScript is disabled. There light runs down like a river too bright to look at, and it sings with a very loud voice. Nevertheless, it is the living who find no consolation. vasca (di una fontana) Piccola fontana - forum Solo Italiano Vino di fontana - forum Solo Italiano. He had thought it barren: he saw now that it was the womb of the worlds, whose blazing and innumerable offspring looked down nightly even upon the earth with many eyes Older thinkers had been wiser when they named it simply the heavens the heavens which declared the glory. O doltish minds! This Life: Secular Faith and Spiritual Freedom, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844. Indeed, Hgglund is unusually weasel-wordy when he concedes that such negotiation will demand an ongoing democratic conversation. Thats putting it optimistically. He says that Heaven is the real God of man: it is Heaven we are really after. "Poi" is definitely Italian, and means "then". I think I know that the task of the living is to keep the dead alive in our hearts. But, if we are to cherish this life, we have to treat what we do as an end in itself. The real measure of value, Hgglund says, is not how much work we have done or have to do (quantity of labor time) but how much disposable time we have to pursue and explore what matters to us (quality of free time).. Lewiss posthumous books, beginning with poetry, 2 Publication of Poems, in which half are altered and Hooper introduces himself as Lewiss personal secretary, Clyde S. Kilby starts Wheaton College C.S. A Grief Observed is a heartfelt memoir of the loss of his wife. He is the judge: God is in the dock. I seemed to see the entire universe smile, and I was enraptured by both sound and sight. Savagely compressed, Hgglunds argument goes something like this: If what makes our lives meaningful is that time ends, then what defines us is what Marx called an economy of time. Marx is, in this sense, probably the most secular thinker who ever lived, the one most deeply engaged with the question of what we do with our time. Theres lots to be said against devotions to saints; but at least they keep on reminding us that we are very small people compared to them. This eyewitness account by Ransom agrees with the eyewitness account by Dante in Canto 27: All Paradise began to ring with the sweet strain Glory be to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit! which intoxicated me. The New Yorker may earn a portion of sales from products that are purchased through our site as part of our Affiliate Partnerships with retailers. Lewis at the Breakfast Table, Seven launched at Wade Center with Barbara Reynolds as editor, Hooper places 1200 letters in collection at Chapel Hill, Hoopers and Barfields attorney warns Lindskoog not to probe any farther in print, Centaurs Cavern charity for Mother Teresa prohibited by Lewis Estate, 2 First publication of Preface to Screwtape Proposes a Toast, Robert Cording begins to launch Kilns Partnership, Stanley Mattson moves to Redlands, California, as a fundraiser, 2 Konrad Kujaus Hitler diaries forgery fools Sunday Times, Lindskoog visits the Bodleian, denied view of Hoopers Dark Tower manuscript, C. S. Lewis stained glass window installed in Monrovia, California, Purchase of the Kilns from the Thirsks by the Kilns Partnership, 2 Mark Hofmann exposed as Americas most notorious document forger, 2 Publication of Encyclopedia Boxoniana (in Boxen), 2 Publication of Modern Man and His Categories of Thought (in Present Concerns), Mattson launches C. S. Lewis College Foundation charity, Kilns Partnership becomes Kilns Association charity, C. F. Joness Literary Detective computer study shows Dark Tower differs from Lewiss prose, = Death of Clyde S. Kilby (dean of American Lewis specialists), = Death of Roger Lancelyn Green (Lewiss chosen biographer), Mattson becomes president of Kilns Association, links it to his own foundation, Bogus Mattson authentication of Dark Tower fools Sunday Times in January, Lewis Legacy newsletter launched in February, Mattson stages 12-man jury trial of The C.S. Never, in any place or time, will she have her son on her knees, or bathe him, or tell him a story, or plan for his future, or see her grandchild.. Lewis lays out his bare feelings honestly and poignantly. (In Lewiss 1948 essay Imagery in the Last Eleven Cantos of Dantes Comedy' he says, the weight of the mountains [or of the Apostles, for they are momentarily one] which weighs upon the soul is equated with the actual weight which bends the bearer double.). british airways head office phone number. Its all right to talk about the new Jerusalem, but one day, Gods preacher must talk about the new New York, the new Atlanta, the new Philadelphia, the new Los Angeles, the new Memphis, Tennessee. . There he wrote of that something which you were born desiring: All the things that have ever deeply possessed your soul have been but hints of it tantalizing glimpses, promises never quite fulfilled, echoes that died away just as they caught your ear. Just as Dante died before there was time for Paradise to be copied and read, C. S. Lewis died before there was time for Letters to Malcolm to be published and read. A Grief Observed is not for everyone, I warn you it is raw and devastating, but it has 2,500 reviews and 80% are five stars written by people who found the book helpful for their own grieving process. I just came across your name on the ODMP and wanted to express our heartfelt sympathy and to sayyou will never be forgotten. Donate to the National Bank of Ukraine's account for humanitarian assistance to refugees through our donation button! In fact, his book is in danger of becoming a victim of its own argumentative victories. This is a short and intense first person account of C S Lewiss (1898-1963) emotional journey as a result of his beloved wifes death. But if H. is not a bodyand the body I loved is certainly no longer sheshe is in no place at all. In it he said, She died instead; went, as one may in all humility hope, to learn more of Heaven than even the Paradiso could tell her., After the death of C. S. Lewiss wife in 1960, he kept a heartwrenching journal that he published under the title A Grief Observed. Start studying ethics final. He begins with Lewiss memoir of mourning, A Grief Observed, which the Christian writer and apologist wrote after the death of his wife of four years, Joy Davidman. To be invulnerable to grief is not to be consummated; it is to be deprived of the capacity to care. In all three accounts, the answer to rational human questions about divine justice is a transrational revelation of the wisdom and goodness of God. In addition to surprises about who gets into Heaven, according to Lewis and Dante, there will be surprises about the ranking in Heaven. Lewis and Warren Lewis separately embrace Christianity, Walter Hooper born March 27 in Reidsville, North Carolina, 2 Master forger Thomas J. The "she" is certainly Beatrice; I think that the eternal fountain is the Divine Presence. One has to lay out new, better secular values. My fellow Christian, George Hartley, spent his last hours in hospital talking cheerfully and quietly with his family as he gently slipped away. The dead might experience a time which is not so linear as ours it might, so to speak, have thickness as well as length. Nevertheless, it is the living who find no consolation. Only torture will bring out the truth. we love and miss you dad and are proud to be your daughters.love carol and charlotte When we ardently hope that the lives of people we love will go on and on, we dont really want them to be eternal. Finally, he tells us she had come to terms with her own death at least there is some hope in the ending. and enters the United States army, Hoopers first letter to Lewis, expressing appreciation, Lewis accepts chair at University of Cambridge, departs University of Oxford, Lewiss first year at University of Cambridge, Civil marriage of C. S. Lewis and Joy Davidman Gresham in April, Hooper leaves the army and begins graduate studies, Lewiss bedside marriage in March, Joys gradual recovery, Hoopers second letter to Lewis, hoping to meet Lewis someday, Forms of Things Unknown idea appears on cover of American magazine, Hooper leaves Virginia Episcopal Seminary, teaches in a boys boarding school, Hooper begins teaching at the University of Kentucky, Hoopers third and fourth letters to Lewis, requesting a 1963 meeting, 2 Lewis allegedly writes Introductory Letter, Hooper meets Lewis June 7, lives at Exeter College during six-week summer program, Lewiss near-fatal attack July 15 that temporarily deranges him, Hooper begins helping Lewis with correspondence, Lewis allegedly tells Hooper A Grief Observed is fiction, gives him juvenilia, Hooper sorts through Lewiss papers alone in Cambridge in mid-August, Hooper returns to Kentucky in late August, resumes teaching, Hooper arranges to visit Lewis between semesters in January 1964, In January Hooper moves to England, resigns from University of Kentucky, In January Hooper allegedly saves trunkloads of Lewis manuscripts from a three-day bonfire, In mid-February Hooper meets Warren Lewis for the first time, Hooper begins editing C.S. One of Kathryn Lindskoogs latest books is Dantes Divine Comedy: Paradise (Mercer University Press, 1998). She smiled, but not at me. I don't know what happens to us after we die. Its strange that Hgglund, in a book that moves so easily between Hegel and Marx, doesnt mention the German philosopher who bridges those two thinkers, and who wrote more lucidly than either about religion: Ludwig Feuerbach. Lewis at the Breakfast Table, M. J. Logsdon launches The Salinas Lewisian newsletter, = Death of Ruth Pitter (distinguished poet, Lewiss friend ), = Death of Dom Bede Griffiths (old friend of Lewis, dedicatee of Surprised by Joy), = Death of Stephen Schofield (editor of Canadian C.S. I feel that to make the life of the blessed dead strictly timeless is inconsistent with the resurrection of the body. Although Dante describes Heaven as beyond time and space, his saints there seem to experience time. Perfect humility dispenses with modesty. Dante clearly demonstrated this humility in Canto 24 after being quizzed by St. Peter about faith. If the religious believer often behaves like an unconscious secularist, then one can assume that some of the great canonical religious texts will do something similar, revealing their actual procedures to a skeptic who is willing to read them against the grain. The Primal Will, goodness itself, never deviates from itself, which is Supreme Good. Lewis, A Grief Observed tags: death , heaven , loved-ones Read more quotes from C.S. There is no Dante in Beatrices beatitude, Hgglund writes, and no Beatrice in Dantes beatitude. One cant dispel the suspicion that the ideal life Hgglund is envisaging is something like his ownethically and intellectually satisfying work, pursued as a worthy end in itself, with plenty of freedom and vacation time (though institutionally dependent on a busy, fertile capitalism). The year after he first read Paradise, C. S. Lewis became a believing Christian, and he was clearly influenced by Dante for the rest of his life. In a Hgglundian utopia, labor would be part of our freedom. It is not really like any of the things we know., Six months later, Lewis told Greeves he had visited Barfield again and they had finished Paradise. Our time together is illuminated by the sense that it will not last forever and we need to take care of one another because our lives are fragile. "Today I am Wise So I Am Changing Myself" I love studying the work of the great philosophers. . There Dante feared that his own back would be bent double someday because of pride, his besetting sin. Lewis is an absolute genius and I learned a lot from reading this, but I also missed a . is pepperoni processed meat; pictures of yin yang tattoos. Mundial what does poi si torno all eterna fontana mean? But Hgglunds central claim is that a good deal of what passes for religious aspiration is secular aspiration that doesnt know itself as such. She said not to me but to the chaplain, 'I am at peace with God.' She smiled, but not at me. Nell'anno in cui si celebra il centenario del primo manifesto e in occasione della 53. I suddenly remembered that no one can enter heaven except as a child; and nothing is so obvious in a child not in a conceited child, but in a good child as its great and undisguised pleasure in being praised. Both books were completed when their authors were unaware that they were on the very brink of the eternity they were both describing. For the modern man, the roles are quite reversed. When he was twenty-three he mentioned in his diary that he disbelieved in immortality and that Dantes facts were outdated. In my opinion, the comforting words of St. James in Canto 25 of Paradise were an assurance to Dante that his pride had been replaced by humility, obviating his need to be cleansed of pride after death. "Poi si torno' all' eterna fontana." Ptl.T.D.HILL Ontario Police October 20, 2004. Lewis (includes first description of Dark Tower story), After publication of biography, Green sees Hoopers claims in final chapter, disapproves, Forms of Things Unknown praised by Hooper in biography, Colin Hardie and others preview Dark Tower in typescript, Tony Marchington visits North Carolina with Hooper, Hooper says in tape-recorded lecture that he learned to forge Lewis penmanship, Hooper visits California, tells of 1964 bonfire for the first time, Paul Ford founds Southern California C.S. Lewis warns that it may be possible to think too much of ones future glory in Heaven, but it is hardly possible to think too often or too deeply of the future glory of other people (everlasting splendours). Nations, cultures, arts, civilization these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. The supposed attraction of eternity, Hgglund writes, is that you cannot lose anything there. Everything flows from the double assumption that only finitude makes for ultimate meaning and that most religious values are unconsciously secular. Does it follow that we can say the same of saints and angels?